Disabling the Church from the Center for Disability and Ministry
Disabling the Church is a podcast by the Center for Disability and Ministry at Western Theological Seminary. This series amplifies the voices, giftedness, and perspectives of disabled people, challenging ableist biases and reimagining the church as a space of true belonging. Through conversations with scholars, ministers, and community members, the podcast explores how the church can dismantle barriers—physical, theological, and cultural—to create a more inclusive and enriched faith community.
Learn more about the Center for Disability and Ministry at Western Theological Seminary at westernsem.edu/cdm
Disabling the Church from the Center for Disability and Ministry
Disabling Church Leadership
This episode listens to disabled voices in church leadership. We speak with the authors of Disabling Leadership: A Practical Theology for a Broken Boyd of Christ. Andrew T. Draper, Jody Michele, and Andrea Mae, join our host Carlos Thompson to discuss their work, writing, and worship life in a church community that values disabled leaders serving the body of Christ.
http://ivpress.com/disabling-leadership
Disabling the Church is a production of the Center for Disability and Ministry at Western Theological Seminary. This series amplifies the voices, giftedness and perspectives of disabled people to enrich the ministry and witness of the church. Join us now for this special bonus episode.
Speaker 2:I'm here with Joni Reverend, dr Andrew Draper and Andrea, and we're here just to spend a little bit of time talking about a book that they have just completed, and it should be out is it this year?
Speaker 2:uh, december 12th is the release date, december 12th um on disability and leadership in the church, and so this is part of a series that's co-branded with intervarsity press and the center for disability and ministry here at Western, and we have the opportunity to spend some time getting to know them and hearing about what God's been doing and what they've been able to put on paper while they're here at the symposium on vocation and disability.
Speaker 4:And then give us a bit of a synopsis of kind of why this book's important for you, but also the impact on the importance that it can have for the church. Hi, my name is Jody McCown. Hi, my name is Jody.
Speaker 3:Michelle this book because people with disabilities need the church. I wrote this book because people with disabilities need the church and the church needs people with disabilities.
Speaker 4:And over my years of disability, advocacy.
Speaker 3:And over my years of disability, advocacy.
Speaker 4:I have learned that the only way that that will meaningfully happen.
Speaker 3:I've learned that the only way that that will meaningfully happen is if we have leaders who actually have disabilities in churches, yes, churches, yes.
Speaker 3:So writing this book was really important.
Speaker 3:Again, Pastor Andrew Draper.
Speaker 3:I've been in ministry in our local context now for almost two decades and from the beginning our church saw the importance of being intentionally diverse along racial and socioeconomic lines.
Speaker 3:But early on we hadn't more fully thought through the implications of diversity and reconciliation for disability issues.
Speaker 3:Um, also, 20 years ago we probably thought about reconciliation in a bit more idealistic or paternalistic way and, living in a community that is under-resourced in many ways, with many people who are marginalized part of our church community, we realized the importance toward justice and within my own family my wife and son having both profound disabilities and myself having an unseen disability that makes it pretty difficult to function at points and then, under the leadership of Jody and Andrea, learning about the ways that disability is not simply an issue but it is connected to ecclesiology in the sense that we are the body of Christ and in order for the body of Christ to be the body, people with disabilities must be in leadership, not in a tokenizing sort of way, but in a way that's central to the constitution of the community. So that's why we wrote at least for me, the impetus in writing. The book was connecting my theological work with race reconciliation and justice to the realities that I was experiencing in my own life and family and church community surrounding disability.
Speaker 2:So, andrea, before we move to an introduction from you, let me just make sure that I'm absorbing this right. So all of you come from the context of Urban Light Community Church in Muncie, indiana. Yes, and you're all serving and belonging to that church community. And then that sort of births, something like maybe we write a book called Disabling Leadership or Practical Theology for the Body of Christ and then offer it to the body of Christ. So nothing that's happening here is disconnected from that lived context, am I?
Speaker 4:True yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's fascinating. That's fascinating, andrea.
Speaker 5:I am Andrea May. I have lived in the community for 17 years. Um, I am the mother of three children with disabilities, my middle daughter being fairly profoundly disabled. Um, I'm also a special educator, so I work in schools with children with disabilities and with their families. Um, and my reason for this book? A lot came from my middle daughter when she started going to Sunday school and not being included in Sunday school teachers not knowing how to include her and having hard conversations about what that looks like and her being part of it, and having conversations with Andrew and Jody alongside that. We all just ended up coming together. We all had similar thoughts and so, yeah, hashing them out in painful and real ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thinking about just even the basics of the title, right, because most of us in writing and publishing we give great thought to the title. But starting the title with disabling leadership. Leadership is a well-known sort of often applied cultural term, but disabling as a descriptor attached to leadership it's not as common, right? So would you be willing to speak a little bit to kind of what disabling leadership is what you had in mind when you use that phrase?
Speaker 3:so the term disabling, in the way that we're using it, is a bit subversive, because the book is going to argue that disability is best understood within god's gift of diversity to the body of Christ and to the world.
Speaker 3:But leadership studies has often been thought of both in secular leadership theory and in Christian leadership studies has often been overly focused on either the capacity, skills and attributes of a leader or some specific understanding of group dynamics or some particular vision of how goals are achieved effectiveness, productivity, a vision and moving toward a goal.
Speaker 3:Less often has the discipline of leadership studies focused on the identity and presence of particular people in particular spaces, spaces in ways that aren't shaped primarily by capacity and attributes.
Speaker 3:So Henry Nowen's account in In the Name of Jesus is especially important for us in the book because he demonstrates how Christian theology opens up doors to talk about leadership in other ways, that, rather than the church just pulling over being a ceo for jesus and to the body of christ, instead thinking about the ways that ministry is mutual, ministry is communal, ministry involves being led by others and learning things that you might not have known and might not have been open to understanding, and so in that sense we are suggesting that disability as god's gift of diversity, disables commonly held conceptions of leadership to open us up to leading in the way of jesus so there's a sense in which you look at leadership studies and language that's familiar within a corporate context, is is often used, but then in this context, maybe in the body of christ, what you're proposing is the idea that leadership is something that's corporate and shared and limits are simple expressions of diversity that we sort of bring to the table in the midst of Jesus is most readily available, like Paul alludes to that right yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it is not in our strength in the sense of what the world considers he says to the church in Corinth right yeah.
Speaker 3:Of what the world considers he says to the church in Corinth right yeah. He does away with the idea of wealth and power as being constitutive of the anointing or the gifting of the work of the living spirit of God being most readily experienced.
Speaker 2:Jody, you currently serve as a minister of accessibility at Urban Light Community Church, but you're also sort of partnering in this conversation, trying to offer something to the body of Christ. And so when you think in terms of leadership as it's currently framed in the culture and leadership in the way that you're sort of proposing it in the book, how would you explain this to someone who just isn't familiar with this kind of new way of framing leadership?
Speaker 4:who just isn't familiar with this kind of new way of framing leadership.
Speaker 3:Disabling leadership, disabling leadership For me, for me, just for me as. I am here. Simply means Centering, centering.
Speaker 4:People with disabilities in leadership. So I would explain to someone that people with disabilities know best about people with disabilities.
Speaker 3:That people with disabilities know best about people with disabilities.
Speaker 4:And we should be the driving force. And we should be the driving force be the driving force when it comes to how to incorporate people within the church.
Speaker 3:We should be the driving force when it comes to how to incorporate people within the church.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:And do you mind, jody, talking a little bit also about how the leadership of people with disabilities shouldn't just be limited to accessibility concerns?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Accessibility issues. Accessibility issues Are just the baseline, are just the baseline.
Speaker 4:If we want people with disabilities to be part of our church community.
Speaker 3:If we want people with disabilities to be part of our church community, we must give them opportunities to serve. We must give them opportunities to be on committees and boards and opportunities to be staff members.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:I hear all the time From disabled people that when I preach, it encourages them, as people with disabilities, to have bigger imaginations for themselves with disabilities, to have bigger imaginations. To have bigger imaginations for themselves. And that brings me such great joy and that brings me such great joy because I know when I was growing up because I know when I was growing up and I didn't have an adult with disabilities in my life. I didn't have an adult with disabilities in my life Adults.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I didn't really know the possibilities for me. Yeah, but to be able to give it to someone else and to be able to proclaim.
Speaker 4:Does that value them?
Speaker 3:With their disability, not despite them. That's very meaningful, and the same is true when other people with disabilities serve within our church.
Speaker 4:They encourage others to have bigger imagination. To a bigger imagination and when we serve it encourages the non-disabled folks to have a bigger image of what it means to be disabled.
Speaker 3:A bigger image of what it means to be disabled. A bigger image of what it means to be disabled.
Speaker 4:We don't need to be all the same anymore.
Speaker 3:Are you saying that we don't need to all be the same in our disabilities?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we have gifts to give. You know when we have opportunities to use them.
Speaker 3:And when we have opportunities to use them.
Speaker 4:It broadens the perspective.
Speaker 3:It broadens the perspective of what it means to be disabled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Thank you Now, andrea, as you sort of come to this conversation, someone who is involved in special education, regularly interacting with families, but also goes home to your own family every day, functions as a parent and a church member there's a lot of different areas or contexts in which you are sort of touching all the spaces that our culture tends to back away from when they think of things like leadership. Right, so you're listening to your friends, your colleagues, your pastor, but also looking in on a conversation. You're listening to your friends, your colleagues, your pastor, but also looking in on a conversation. You're a part of what value, as a parent and as a professional, does a concept like disabling leadership actually provide for you?
Speaker 5:um I. The first context I would immediately say is the church is accessible for my kid. Having people in leadership that see accessibility issues is so important, yeah, but beyond that, even thinking of my daughter, shiloh, who's in a wheelchair, she loves Jodi and she seeks Jodi out on Sunday mornings. Yeah, yeah, yeah loves Jodi and she seeks Jodi out on Sunday mornings. So for her, having someone that looks like her, who's in church regularly or who's even upfront preaching, is important to me. But also having people who are comfortable with my daughter, because she doesn't interact or function in the way that most people would prefer, that a child interaction, interact or function in church, she will crawl up on the stage, she will yell, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And so that's what happens to a lot of families who are asked to leave their children are seen as disruptive. So having people in leadership not just my voice, me as a parent is important, but like jody's voice saying we need to invite Shiloh in. This is how Shiloh worships, this is her gift to us. Yeah, having people there that will advocate on her behalf as well, and not just her, but everyone's behalf, realizing that people have sensory issues and we might need to provide something for that and we might need to provide something for that. Just having people in leadership who are aware of those things makes it easier for a family who is overwhelmed and in need of respite to walk in and feel safe in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, as I'm listening the three of you, there's this idea if you never see or observe or interact with people that are different than you or challenge your frameworks, then the chances that you would just naturally challenge those frameworks, especially in relation to theology and the way that we read the Bible, it's slick, yeah, right. So Jody preaching and sort of extending to other people, hearing the voice of God flow through you when you preach a sermon opens the door for other people, right, yeah. And then Andrea walks into the church with her family and her kids love you and her kids have sort of a different relationship with what it might mean to receive a vocation or a call from God to engage the church in a world. So this all makes sense because you can disconnect what you're, what you're writing about, what you're asserting, from the context in which you live. It all sort of flows together.
Speaker 2:But now I'm curious as a theological concept, christians usually talk a lot about the body of christ and they mean both the church but also the, the physical body of christ, and usually the bridge between sort of the person and the physical body of Christ and the church is it's usually the sacraments, the Last Supper or or the crucifixion, right. And I noticed that when you're talking about disabling leadership, the body of Christ factors in quite prominently, both as you know, the church, but but also as the image of the body of Christ is a teaching trope, right. So can you explain some of how the image of the body of Christ impacts, how you walk out some of these concepts?
Speaker 5:Yeah, let me take that one. So I'm gonna read a verse from Hebrews. It's on my watch, I don't have it memorized.
Speaker 2:You fancy.
Speaker 5:I know. Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way. This was so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest, and things relating to God, in order to wipe away the sins of the people. This is Hebrews 2, 17. And the heath are referring to as Jesus becoming our merciful high priest.
Speaker 5:So let me start out by saying I am in no way putting together sin and disability. I am not saying that disability is because of sin. What I would present here is that, if Christ is like us in every way, that we have to see that he has a disability, because when we look around the body of Christ, people have disabilities and, generally speaking, almost everyone experiences some sort of disability. If they grow old, our bodies break down and therefore Jesus has to know what that's like, and for me that was obvious. My middle daughter has set down syndrome.
Speaker 5:Um, and at some point in my faith the idea of heaven and everything being made new meant that she wasn't going to have down syndrome, right and um. Once I really started thinking about that I thought that's, that's part of who she is, and actually I think it'd be really sad if I got to heaven and she didn't have down syndrome and so just seeing Jesus is having down syndrome or Jesus is having cerebral palsy. And because he can relate to us in every way, his body is broken. His resurrected body still had the marks of his crucifixion. You could see where he was nailed to the cross. Therefore we have to assume that even when we're made new, that maybe not all of our scars are, not all of our disabilities go away yeah.
Speaker 2:So the the sticking point, or the longevity of recognizing that there is sort of embedded brokenness within the crucified body of Christ that is retained in the resurrected body of Christ. Now, within disability studies, disability theology, there is a bit of a debate back and forth around what that means, right? And so you can go all the way back to nancy easland's book the disabled god, where she makes a similar claim, this idea that, yeah right, god has a disability and is in what she calls a sip puff wheelchair and there are disability theologians and scholars, myself included, that have taken major issue with what she's doing there but can recognize the beauty and the good what she's doing there, right? Um, this idea that disability in our culture is just sort of intrinsically related to sin becomes really problematic and untenable when you look at the marks of the resurrected body of christ that were put there by sin. And yet god the father says this is good, beautiful, perfect and you can ascend, stand in my right hand, whole and holy, but he's not disabled by those marks, right?
Speaker 2:So? So raise some interesting questions, um, that you know are worth engaging, and here at western we provide some context to do that. This book is going to spur some of those conversations too. So, from there and there's anything else you want to add in terms of, like the theological constructs that you're working with in relation to the body, I would say one, since that is a debate within disability theology, we can pause without saying too much, right, much right.
Speaker 3:So, like creedal orthodoxy is um apophatic in the sense that it creates, it gives some guidelines, but it doesn't overstate. Yeah, right, right, okay. So so you know, jody in the book has us draw from amos young's four fences, in the same way that the church was doing four christological fences. There are four fences of disability.
Speaker 3:So one of the things we're bringing up is we aren't trying to wade into that debate in a thick sense of saying, you know, we're not making an anthropocentric claim about God to say that well, there are things that God quote can't do. Rather, what we're saying is that it depends on your frame for how you define disability. Like if you're defining disability as diversity, then there are marks of our created being, that that are sustained into the eschaton because they're part of who we are and none of us can ultimately know whether we believe we're able-bodied or or or not. None of us can ultimately know our identity is hidden with Christ and God, as, as Bonhoeffer says. So like I mean, obviously it comes from Paul, but that's a big deal for Bonhoeffer and thinking, thinking through his theological anthropology.
Speaker 3:So rather, one of the things I've learned from Jody, for instance, is not to focus so much on what do we want our bodies to be like in heaven or how do we define disability in heaven, but rather to focus on the tears being wiped away from our eyes, the pain suffering being gone, but who we are as known to god remaining, and, and that we can't simply brush disability off. Like to say that that disability is erased in the eschaton is to consign it simply to the fall and not to any kind of creative intentionality. Yeah, god, yeah, I, yeah, I love that. I'm sure Jody can say more about that. I just was trying to turn some of that out quickly to follow up. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I love the dance with mystery, yes, yes, things that we just don't know, right, and Andrea, when you say I have this family member that beloved to me and beloved to God, that lives with what we would call Down syndrome, and to just sort of erase that from the narrative, there's grief there for those who love that person, and that also sort of must hold weight in terms of how we engage the mysterious questions. We can't just provide green answers for, right, jodi, was there anything else you wanted to add?
Speaker 4:Huh, yeah, oh boy, oh, my God was there anything else you wanted to? Add Huh, there is so much I want to add, there is so much I want to add but we are limited in time.
Speaker 3:We are limited in time, yeah, and do you want to say?
Speaker 4:I do want to say I would say having scars Having.
Speaker 3:I would say having scars Is disabling Because people treat you differently, they treat you as less than Because your body is not fitting the mold, and in that way I would argue that Jesus was disabled.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:My view of heaven has changed over the years.
Speaker 4:I went from believing that I would, without a doubt, be healed in heaven.
Speaker 3:I went from believing that I would, without a doubt, be healed in heaven.
Speaker 4:But then I realized. Then I realized I was believing that, because that's what I was being told.
Speaker 3:I was believing that because that's what I was being told, and people would say this out of ableism. You know, the more that I embrace my disability, I don't see it as something that needs to be erased.
Speaker 4:Um, um. I do believe that um.
Speaker 3:I do believe that I will still have cerebral palsy in some way. What does it look like?
Speaker 4:I have no idea. I have no idea.
Speaker 3:But I refuse to say that my cerebral palsy is just because of the fall.
Speaker 4:Because I see too much beauty in it. Because I see too much beauty in it, yes, On the other side, on the other side, I lost sight in my right eye.
Speaker 3:I lost sight in my right eye Eight years ago. Eight years ago. I will admit, I will admit and I will admit, I will admit and I will admit I totally hope that I will have my sight back. I totally, I will admit that. I totally hope I will have my sight back.
Speaker 4:And then I know people with I totally, I will admit that I totally hope I will have my sight back, yeah, and then I know people with disabilities, and I know people with disabilities. Who are in one camp or the other.
Speaker 3:Who are in one camp or the other, but at the end of the day, but at the end of the day, do you know what? Do you know what God will be God? God will be God, and that is enough for me.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. That's beautiful as we think about sort of the beauty that's offered in presenting this idea that within the body of Christ, efficiency is sort of swapped out for fidelity, and sort of uniformity is sort of set to the side in favor of unity, and you have instead of sort of emphasis on cultural words like deficiency. You end up with things like beauty and divinity expressed in the midst of diversity. A lot of that seems to come forward here in a way that makes a lot of sense, but it's one side to this sort of complete picture which is getting there to the point where you're living into that faithful vision is challenging. It's hard, right, um, now I'm making an assumption here.
Speaker 2:When I say I, I would venture to guess it's even a little messy. Yes, yeah, so some of that is present in the book and that's a really good and beautiful thing. But but I'm curious, um, would, would you be willing to kind of walk the listeners through some of what the challenge is, some of what the mess that they're invited into is and what the what that opened up in each of you about some of the work that god still had to do in you, right, because none of us have arrived at this sort of like sanctified perfection. Right, we're not writing books to say this is what I've arrived at you haven't gotten there, so so again, you know, as I read the book, I think that's that's an important thing to know.
Speaker 2:Right like this is a. This is a beautiful picture that's being offered in fidelity, but there there's pain, mess and and sanctification involved in actualizing that Right. Andrea, would you mind starting?
Speaker 5:Sure.
Speaker 5:Do you want examples? Is that what I'm hearing? Yes, okay. Probably the first one that comes to mind is the day that I walked out of service to go to the bathroom and I peeked in Sunday school classroom and all the kids were sitting around the table working and Shiloh was in a corner by herself and Lily was paying attention to her and I just stood there crying and I knew I needed to confront it, but I couldn't at that moment because I knew it wouldn't go well, yeah, yeah, um. And so going home and like gathering my thoughts and do I want to make waves? I need to, I need to advocate for my kid, but like I get so tired of advocating and I don't want to be seen as the person that's asking for more than what you know, and so that time I ended up sending an email to the person who was in charge of children's ministry and we had a hard conversation back and forth and I was able to say this is what I need for my kid Um, and they have met that need. Um, she'll be in sixth grade next year, which will she won't be in Sunday school anymore. So we have moved through it beautifully.
Speaker 5:And then the other time that I think of is I. I've lots of times I feel like we take up a lot of space, a lot of like when we go somewhere. I have a kid in a wheelchair and she makes noises and she stems and everyone stares and sees us and she loves music and dancing and so she always wanted to come into worship and I would be like, no, no, you're like, you're gonna make noises, you want to move around like people are gonna be uncomfortable. I'm not taking you out. So finally, one sunday I was just like, okay, I'll take you. And I sat in the front row intentionally so I couldn't see what anybody else was. I couldn't see people turning around looking front row intentionally so I couldn't see what anybody else was. I could see people turning around looking at me. I didn't want to see what people thought.
Speaker 5:And she really wanted to go on stage and hug the choir director and she just kept trying to climb out of my arms and I'm. And Andrew came and sat down next to me and he said what does she want? And I said she wants to go hug her. And he was like, so, let her. And so she went up on stage and she hugged her and she danced and during the last song that was, you know, like slowed down and worshipful. She was just making her noises singing along without words and I thought, oh, this is it, this is when they're going to be like, please don't bring her back in worship. But instead Andrew talked about it afterwards and talked about David worshiping and his linen ephod and how his wife was like what are you doing? But how that's? That's a gift to us to get to experience her worship in the way that she is experiencing God in that moment.
Speaker 3:I'm laughing because that's one time when, in that little way, wow, I'm laughing because that's one time when I did something right, but there's plenty of opportunities of me not doing it right that we could talk about as well. In fact, the book opens up with a vignette from Jodi and I. You want to talk about that? Yes, Okay. Yes.
Speaker 4:I do.
Speaker 3:Part of the messiness of dealing with disability issues.
Speaker 4:In the In the.
Speaker 3:Talking for myself. Something happened in our church. You have to read it to find out. You have to read it to find out. The whole story Well played. What I didn't talk about in the book, what I did talk about in the book, what I didn't, what I didn't talk about in the book.
Speaker 4:What I didn't, what I didn't talk about in the book Would be when Andrew and I were having a hard conversation.
Speaker 3:It was not about that moment, it was about all the years behind. It was about all the years behind.
Speaker 4:From all the other people.
Speaker 3:From all the other people.
Speaker 4:That I was bringing with me. And it didn't really work out that I was bringing with me.
Speaker 3:And I think it's really important for church leaders.
Speaker 4:It's really important for people to know about issues.
Speaker 3:For church leaders to realize that when people come to them about issues, they are usually bringing a lot of trauma with them. Because it's hard to live this life with a disability the way we are treated, live this life with a disability. The way we are treated.
Speaker 4:The way we are treated, the way we are made to be burdens.
Speaker 3:The way we are made to be burdens.
Speaker 4:The way we are made to be burdens, the way our needs are undervalued.
Speaker 3:The way our needs are undervalued.
Speaker 4:We are going out of this when we get the courage to talk to leaders.
Speaker 3:We are bringing all of this when we get the courage to talk to leaders.
Speaker 4:Talk to leaders or take food.
Speaker 3:So sometimes the leaders are confused Because they are. Sometimes they are confused when we are so upset.
Speaker 4:And the leaders need to realize it's not about them.
Speaker 3:The leaders need to realize it's not about them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, all the other, all the other challenges they have dealt with in their life.
Speaker 3:All the other issues that they have dealt with in their life yes, so that, so they.
Speaker 4:I remember that Andrew told me had to remind me that we were in this together.
Speaker 3:I remember Andrew had to remind me that we were in this together.
Speaker 4:But what? But I remember Andrew had to remind me that we were in this together.
Speaker 3:But, in that moment. It was reasonable, it was unattainable, it was unattainable, unattainable, understandable, but I was so emotional W that was so emotional, one that was so emotional.
Speaker 4:And then you know, and then you know, leaders need to realize.
Speaker 3:So leaders need to realize. That people are not overreacting, that people are not overreacting or being overly emotional.
Speaker 4:These are issues that affect us deeply that affect very deeply, that affect us.
Speaker 3:That affect us deeply.
Speaker 4:It's not about and when To be.
Speaker 3:Unheard and unseen and to be unheard and unseen For years, for years and to be unheard and unseen for years in the world we want a rest and break from that. We want a rest and break from that and we assume we will get it in the church and we assume we will get it in the church. And then when I met with Andrew and so when I met with Andrew, I was really overwhelmed. It was because I felt safe enough to let it all out. It was overwhelming for Andrew.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it was overwhelming when we were bringing in trauma.
Speaker 3:So it's really that we were bringing in trauma. Yeah, can I say one quick word about that? So one of the things I've learned is there's two things going on. Well, three things going on. One all of us are human beings and we're going to make mistakes and do dumb things. One. Two there are certain ways that I've been habituated, raised, enculturated, whatever you know. We have ways of describing it, such as white male privilege, then, can be helpful ways of describing it. But at the same time, we don't just end in a deconstructive stance with that, where you kind of go.
Speaker 3:Well, I hear so many, especially white male pastors say things like well, there's no room for me in the culture, I'm always being persecuted or devalued or whatever, and like that is a complete misunderstanding of what's going on is, if I do something stupid as a white man and it is driven, at least in part, yes, some of it's just I'm a human being, but some of it might be driven in part of historical power dynamics and things like that, like it's a gift. If someone comes to me and shares that with me, it's not that person attacking me, it's. I can't be defensive. I have to be willing to hear and receive that I have to be healthy enough to know what are the things I need to own because there's something I've done personally and what are the things that are systemic and cultural, that are part of histories that we all and cultural that are part of histories that we all participate in and are part of. And then, at the end of the day, also, like that shows trust and love If you confront me because something I did hurts you, it means you love me enough to not let it go and fester, because then we can't be part of the body of Christ.
Speaker 3:So I hear people who want diverse churches, they want racial reconciliation, they want people with disabilities there, they want all this stuff, but they don't want to do the hard work of seeing where their own communities and their own leadership is not encouraging inclusion. And our church is by no means perfect. We've put a lot of money and a lot of effort into accessibility, but we still are a long way off from being the kind of community that perfectly incorporates the diversity of the body.
Speaker 4:But yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But if our default setting is to be defensive, the body of Christ is the one place in society that is supposed to be constituted by the members who are most disenfranchised by society being afforded places of central honor, right Like that's the work Andrea does in the biblical commentary in the book. Like when Paul talks about the honorable and unpresentable members. It's not a hierarchy that he's building. He's he's saying like the church is a different kind of community yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:That's really good and that's really helpful when you think about sort of these other constructs that are being brought to the front. Like an ethicist and Christian education scholar, nicholas Wolterstorff does a lot of work around Shalom and this idea of like you can't have the Shalom of God in this far reaching sort of cosmic sense, without justice, and so he writes a number of books, but one of them is titled. I think it's when peace and justice embrace. A number of books, but one of them is titled, uh, I think it's when peace and justice embrace, and the argument is this is what shalom sort of means is that the work of god, the restorative work of the gospel, and the reality of justice actually hold hands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so some of what I'm hearing from from you and jody is this idea of like the church is a place where injustice, the results of injustice, walk through the door and all the mess of that is just like lobbed out, you know, and then, and then those that are in a position of leadership or power, they kind of skewered the space that says the parts of this that I have caused, lord have mercy, the parts of this that the world and the culture has caused or systemic systems have caused.
Speaker 2:Let me invite you to the feet of jesus, where healing can happen. But we often don't want to talk about the piece of that that touches on this sort of difficult thing to chew, which is justice, right, right, uh. So, as we sort of wind things up, I'm just kind of wondering what's, what's the relationship between justice and this sort of broad topic that relates to the body of christ, the work of the gospel and the mission of the church, justice and sort of leadership in relation to disability how do these things connect in a way that you've seen fruit in in your church?
Speaker 3:Justice values people. Justice values people, yeah.
Speaker 4:And it values the means.
Speaker 3:And it values the means, the needs, oh, the needs of people.
Speaker 4:Yeah, For example people with disabilities have a lot of assets.
Speaker 3:Have a lot of assets, have a lot of assets, have a lack of assets. No, is it a mod? I'm sorry. Okay, I forgive you. Thank you for forgetting.
Speaker 4:A lack of access, a full thing we ask to us A lack of access. To transportation, to transportation access to transportation and that prevents people from being in church.
Speaker 3:And that prevents people from being in church. And people have a lack of access to um to help people which they need to be able to get ready for the day.
Speaker 4:Yeah, which they need to be able to get ready for the day.
Speaker 3:People can't go to church if they are stuck in bed. Yeah, stuck in bed, yeah, I mean. Like, for instance, in our town, public transportation doesn't run on Sundays, and so it costs what? $10 each way? Yes, $20 a Sunday. $20 a Sunday for someone to use the local ambulance service and get to church.
Speaker 4:Most people with disabilities many, many people with disabilities live in poverty.
Speaker 3:Many, many people with disabilities live in poverty, and that's because many of us are seen as unemployable. And that is just not true. We just need to figure out ways to help us to do the job. To help us to do the job.
Speaker 4:It's not that we can't do it. It's just that we need to do it differently.
Speaker 3:It's not that we can't do it, it's just that we need to do it differently.
Speaker 4:And then we need to do nursing home issues.
Speaker 3:Nursing home issues, yeah.
Speaker 4:We need to stop putting people with disabilities in nursing homes.
Speaker 3:We need to stop putting people with disabilities in nursing homes. Just help them to remain in their home. Help them to remain in their home.
Speaker 4:So um by giving them the support they need by giving them the supports they need.
Speaker 3:We need to help warehousing them. We need to stop warehousing them.
Speaker 4:Um, they can't, but they are no place to live.
Speaker 3:They are no places to live. And most people are totally overwhelmed.
Speaker 4:Unaware.
Speaker 3:What it's really like to be in nursing homes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Well, anyway, this all relates to justice.
Speaker 3:This all relates to justice.
Speaker 4:If we value people, we will help them to be a part of the community.
Speaker 3:We will help them to be a part of community. Yeah, and Andrea might be able to speak to this, but Jody and Andrea, both in their professional lives, are involved in advocacy in multiple ways Jodi with the Indiana governor's council with disabilities at one point and now with Indiana disability justice and so on, and Andrea being a special education provider and speaking at different organizations. But it's that kind of justice work in society that, in small ways, we can start to recognize and implement within the church. Not that our church does it perfectly, but there are things like we went to our local bus company and bought one of their used accessible buses so that on Sundays we have volunteers that drive that. Now it often isn't working and it costs a lot of money to fix it, but when we get it it's going and all that it's great or we can, we could help cover costs for eating, the ambulance service, tickets for people to come, or there's.
Speaker 3:There's other things. Amy Kenny has talked about it as covering the crypt tax. Yeah, many people with disabilities, um, uh, as jody said, live in poverty, but the need, their needs to just sustain a basic standard of living are, are higher, and so what you have is you know, if everything is 25 percent more, you know, like the, the, the van that we bring up here, the accessible van for the week that we rent, is is you know half, you know a quarter to a third, again, as much as as and there are reasons, of course, why that?
Speaker 2:yes, but still, that comment is usually visited back on people who, who can't afford it, which then creates a system or a form of injustice, right and in. In a sense it's like this costs more, but it's not something you have any control over and you're in a system where you're actually garnering less income and therefore can't afford it, and then you don't have access and it's just circles. So the church stepping in and saying we're going to understand that access and proximity are important for you to be involved in community and therefore connected to healthy systems. We're going to try to alleviate some of that cryptex.
Speaker 2:I believe and you're correct me if I'm wrong I think the book you're referencing from amy kenny would be my body's not a prayer request. Yeah, I feel like to make sure. So if you're listening to this um and you're interested in some literature, there's some sort of quotes that are pulled from different points. One is sort of amy kenney, amy kenney's book my body is not a prayer request. Andrew, is there anything else you wanted to add, as you're kind of listening into this corner over here?
Speaker 5:uh well, I mean, it's the. It's expensive. Being a parent of a child with disabilities and the Justice Affect Debate is definitely where my caution is, especially when it comes to. I work in a Title I school, which just means there's a lot of poverty, and so parents often don't even know what's available to them or what they have taxes to legally. And so, yeah, the justice aspect of making sure that people know where resources are and that there are resources available.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so having conversation partners that can sort of invite people into the parts of the conversation that they may not be aware of is a form of saying unawareness in this system perpetuates injustices, Right. And so Christ steps in through your presence and says let me, let me sort of shine some light on some areas that were previously shadowed. It's been really good to talk with the three of you. Thank you for being here Again. The release date for Disabling Leadership A Practical Theology for the Body of Christ will be December 12th. Please pick it up, read it and know that these are conversation partners. If you're interested in sort of visiting this community or visiting this church, it's Urban Light Community Church in Muncie, Indiana. Thank you very much, God bless you all.
Speaker 1:This has been a Center for Disability and Ministry production. Join us next time for another insightful episode.